An interview with the author

What follows describes how I came to develop the approach discussed in the book, presented in mock interview, Question and Response, style. It also provides some illustrations of how the underlying principles apply to even very young children.

Q: I noticed on your web page that you said you specialized in work with children, after training in work with adults. Did your training include the sort of approach you discuss in How to Raise Disciplined and Happy Children)?

R: Actually, the approach presented in the book did not come naturally to me. My graduate school training emphasized "learning theory" but most of my clinical training was based on the work of Freud and his followers. As a result, while I was exposed to all the theories of learning, I had almost no experience working with people based on those theories.

Q: So what influenced you to use this approach?

R: As it turned out, a variety of experiences in my professional and family life led me to a whole new appreciation of the science behind the theory I had learned and of the powerful clinical benefits from applying those theories in the real world.

Q: Could you describe some of those experiences?

R: Sure. Early in my career I directed a psychology department serving developmentally delayed individuals in Chicago. One of our psychologists and his staff worked with children at the clinic. After getting to know them well, they designed programs to help parents manage their children’s difficult behaviors in their own homes. However, too often programs which worked well in the clinic didn’t work out so well at home. The problem most often seemed to be that the parents weren’t able to carry out the programs away from the clinic. As a result I was generally dubious about behavior therapy and I never became closely involved with this branch of our department’s work.

Q: With that rather negative start, what happened to change your view?

R: While my experience in the professional world hadn’t seemed so promising, the birth of our first child, Michael, soon made the challenge of dealing with child behavior a lot more personal. Our baby brought constant joy into our lives and we were in awe at his ever-changing interaction with his environment and his rapid emergence into a responsive, active, exuberant, and loving individual.

However, to our mild chagrin, by the time Mike was a few months old, his exuberance made diaper changes a challenging – and sometimes damp – undertaking. Although I didn’t recognize it at the time, our efforts to deal with this taught me a great deal. In fact it proved to be pivotal in the development of my understanding of how to deal with children and their challenging behaviors. It also illustrated how very early in life a child can respond to constructive parenting.

Q: That seems like a lot for a simple diaper change. Can you tell me more?

R: Well, bit by bit the challenges at diaper time had me feeling pretty inadequate. After all, I was much bigger and more experienced than the baby and I should have been able to manage diapering without so much struggle. Of course the "talking therapy" I used with my patients was not much help; after all, at that point Mike’s vocabulary ranged from "coo" to "goo." A lucky development was to nudge me to a better approach.

Q: So luck played a role in how you learned to deal with children?

R: It did, at least in determining when I learned these things; probably I would have gotten there eventually, but not as soon and maybe not with so much conviction.

One evening while my wife was away I began a diaper change with my usual misgivings. As I undid the diaper, ready to duck in case Mike wriggled free, I realized that I had not gotten out the diaper cream. With one hand I held him while I dug through the diaper materials almost out of my reach, with my head turned away. As I found the tube of cream, I realized that Mike was lying still under my other hand! When I looked down at him, his quizzical look gave way to a broad smile and his arms and legs went into motion. "Hmm," I thought, "Isn’t that interesting?" as I recalled my colleague instructing parents to withhold attention from kids during undesirable behavior.

I was curious enough now to want to check this out. Still holding the baby with one hand I again stretched and reached away from him so he could not see what I was doing. Again within a short time I noticed Mike’s movements slowed and then virtually stopped! But also again when I turned back to him I was met with a quick change to smiling, babbling, and flailing arms and legs.

Q: Once again it sounds like things weren’t going so well. What happened then?

R: Well, we psychologists can be pretty persistent when we get curious about behaviors that surprise us. But your comment is on target. What I found was that each time I turned away, Mike calmed for a time but each time I looked back, he resumed his activity. So, how could that help, since I could hardly change diapers while looking elsewhere?

Q: That seems like a good question, but that’s supposed to be my job.

R: Sorry. The answer to that important question turned out to be suggested in another thing I noticed: Each time, when I turned back, it seemed that Mike stayed quiet a bit longer than he had the time before. That was encouraging, but still not a solution.

Q: So what did you do then?

R: I decided I needed to find a way to help Mike stay calmer while I was looking at him. Since he was used to babbling at me and to me babbling back, I thought that I should do something different and hope that he would, too. What I hit upon, instead of babbling to him, was talking softly each time I turned back to face him. This seemed to have a good effect because I soon found him smiling at me but moving less. After repeating that pattern a few more times, the baby stayed noticeably calmer and it lasted a bit longer each time. To sum it up, what I saw was this:

• Each successive time I turned away, Mike quieted a bit more quickly, and
• Each time I turned back and talked quietly to him, he remained calm for a bit longer.

Finally the baby lay adequately still while I spoke in soft tones to him and I was able to complete the diapering process pretty easily.

Q: So that means the problem was solved, just like that?

R: Don’t we wish it could be that easy? A while later, as nature would have it, it was time for another diaper change. And in my naive way, this time I was actually eager, expecting to see Mike lay calmly while I did my job. Mike, unfortunately, hadn’t read the script and he responded as usual with flailing arms and legs while babbling happily at my attention. While I found this discouraging, I made myself repeat the same steps as before. To my relief, this time Mike responded much more quickly to the same maneuvers; when I turned away he quieted more quickly and the entire process of diapering took less time overall. By a third diapering that evening the process was easier still and my confidence had increased considerably.

Q: That sounds very encouraging. Was your wife as pleased as you were?

R: In fact, when I described to my wife what we had done, she was clearly dubious. I understood, since here I was excitedly claiming significant changes a few hours after she’d left home, in a baby a few months old! But when the need next arose, she willingly watched me do the diapering. You may not be surprised to hear that things didn’t go quite so well this time. Mike responded to diapering as he always had in his mother’s presence, with his usual babbling and flailing. Eager to demonstrate the success of which I had been so proud, I had her move to watch out of Mike’s view while I completed changing his diaper. The process was a bit slower than it had been before she got home but soon Mike was responding as well as he had earlier.

We repeated this pattern a time or two more and my wife decided the approach was helpful enough that she tried it herself. At first Mike behaved as he always had but soon he learned to stay calm during diapering with his mom as well. After a few more days of practice the pattern was changed, essentially for good; only occasionally did either of us have to withdraw our attention to calm him during diapering.

Q: So, what did you learn from this lucky development?

R: It took me a while to fully understand how this all worked. After a bit of consultation with my colleague, a bit of reading, and considerable reflection, it became clear that we actually had utilized a well-established concept – although with a younger child than it was typically applied to.

Here is how I came to understand it: The unexpressed goal was to keep Mike calmer during diapering. To reach that goal I needed to make his flailing about a less positive experience, and it appeared that turning my face away accomplished that step. His behavior reduced when he no longer had my attention. Put differently, when I stopped reinforcing the behavior I didn’t want, the behavior lessened. Then when I quietly rewarded his calmer behavior by talking softly to him, that behavior increased.

Q: That does sound encouraging. Could you summarize all that so I can keep it clear?

R: I’ll try. In summary, there were two parts of the process:

• When Mike did not have a smiling and responsive parent’s face beaming down at him, his behavior changed from rambunctious to calmer (that is, removing the advantages of his less appropriate behavior reduced the behavior), and

• When I smiled and talked quietly to him while he was calm, he tended to remain calm (that is, reinforcing of appropriate behavior increased that behavior), allowing me to complete the diapering process much easier.

Q: Okay, that seems clear enough. Since you described this as a major step toward developing the approach you write about in the book, what were the lessons learned?

R: With enough time to think it all through, my wife and I were able to conclude from this experience that:

• Even a baby a few months old is responsive to – and learns from – external reinforcement,

• That fact is true, whether the behavior is one we don’t like or one we do,

• This brief interchange demonstrated a very young baby’s capacity to internalize change so as to make it permanent,

• As parents, we could directly and systematically apply that knowledge to support appropriate behavior in our child, and

• Knowing that we had such influence on our baby made it clear that we had enormous responsibility to assure we focused our influence appropriately.

Q: Those do seem like important lessons. But was that all it took for you to move from "talking" therapy to the approach of How to Raise Disciplined and Happy Children?

R: Well, first of all, I didn’t abandon psychotherapy, but I was more and more selective about when to use it. And I did come to frequently rely on behavior therapies in my work. But at this early stage, I was yet to have several other equally important experiences that contributed to that transition.

Q: Please tell me more.

R: When Mike was 17 months old, we moved from the Midwest to California, where I started a new position in a large outpatient mental health clinic. There I was responsible for psychosocial assessment and treatment of children and families. My typical approach to my patients, in keeping with the training I described earlier, relied on "talking therapies." Even in this familiar setting my approach was soon to be challenged.

Soon after I began work, I saw a family with several children. To protect the family's privacy, I will change some of the identifying details, but it won't change the important aspects. Three of the kids had come for psychotherapy, each for several of their very few years, and the parents described little if any benefit. They expressed hope, however, that more such service would improve things. I thought that doing more of what hadn’t worked might not be the best plan. What to do instead was less clear.

The parents and I, alike, assumed that underlying anxieties were responsible for the troubling things the children did. However, during our family meetings I noticed that the parents frequently reacted sharply to their children’s whining, complaining, or fussing – among the behaviors they deplored – with little impact. In fact, their pattern reminded me of what our jabbering while Mike flailed about Mike during diapering, a year or so earlier.

Q: I suppose there is some similarity. But how could that experience relate to this family’s needs?

R: Watching this family interact made me wonder how much of their struggle was due to attention the parents paid to the very behaviors they said they wished to stop. I wondered whether, if we could eliminate the impact of the parents’ attention to inappropriate behaviors, we could better understand both the extent and nature of the assumed underlying anxieties. Wishing to test this notion and uncertain about what else to do, during our first session together we set up a simple behavioral checklist and reward system aimed at increasing desirable behavior and reducing misbehavior. The checklist included such items as "picking up toys when done with them," "going to bed when told to," and "taking turns when playing with siblings."

The family returned a couple weeks later with the results from the checklist. The parents happily told me that the kids were doing much of what was on their checklists. At the same time, the kids were clearly pleased with themselves and with the approval they were receiving from their parents.

Q: That sounds promising. But what did that tell you all about the underlying anxieties?

R: You have anticipated my own next question. After our review, I tried to focus the parents on developing a plan for psychotherapy based on what we learned from this effort. To my amazement these parents, who had been seeking ongoing treatment for three children, had no interest in talking about that. Instead they wanted help expanding the checklists to deal with other behaviors and to include their other children. As a compromise, I agreed to help with those requests and they agreed to return to discuss therapy a few weeks later. Well, they did return, even more enthusiastic about their home checklist, and they never did come back for psychotherapy. The last I knew of them they were all doing well and felt no further need for mental health services.

Q: For a family coming for ongoing therapy after little success before, that’s a big change. Where did you go from there?

R: Sometimes I can be a slow learner, but this experience caught my attention. From then on I was alert for signs that parents might be inadvertently rewarding their children’s inappropriate behavior. Whenever I suspected it, I worked with the parents to establish simple behavioral programs. At that point the programs were not very sophisticated but I saw enough success to keep working at it. Even then, for a good long time I intended those programs to help sort out what was learned behavior and what was based on internalized anxiety. That is, I saw each of these ventures as basically diagnostic, to help plan for what I still saw as the "real" treatment.

Q: Is that still the way you look at things, or did something happen to change your views?

R: Over time it became more and more difficult to maintain this view. Clearly what was happening in these selected families was, itself, treatment. It was common for parents to report changes in their children’s behavior, but they also described improvements in how the family interacted and in the children’s own comfort and self-confidence. I also noticed that typically I was spending only a few sessions with these families, compared to the months or even years then typically spent in psychotherapy. Further, all too often, psychotherapy resulted in little tangible gain in families who had a pattern of reacting to inappropriate behaviors. I want to stress, however, that for many other families "talking therapies" – either individual or family style -- still remain the treatments of choice.

Q: You described learning the theory behind this new approach years before. Surely you were not the only therapist who applied the theory to work with families. What were others doing?

R: Along with my own experience, I actively sought training in the fast-growing field of behavior therapies, reading a good deal and attending professional workshops on the topic. In fact, everything in the book is built on the rock-solid foundation of many decades of research and clinical experience that has made behavior therapies, in their various manifestations, a major force in all health and education fields. Beyond this basic foundation, what guided my learning was a great deal of specific experience with actual families struggling to teach their children responsible behavior.

Q: Your earliest influence seemed to be your family. Was there any further impact from your own experiences as a parent?

R: Indeed there was. While I was busy with these professional experiences, at home we continued the adventure of raising our son. He who was growing into toddler-hood and we were loosely consciously attempting to apply the principles of behavior therapy. Before long we were to have another specific opportunity to apply our growing understanding of the relationship between behavior and the responses to it.

We lived near a large family-oriented marine park for which we purchased annual passes allowing more frequent but shorter stays than the marathon visits to which tourists are subject. As a result, by the time Mike was two and a half or so he came to feel he owned the place. Our pattern was to pop in and tour one section of the park each time we went, and he was inclined to dash eagerly off to see something he was fond of. This was fine when a step or two would put us beside him but as he became speedier and more agile, the challenge of keeping him close increased. We were faced with either constantly holding his hand and thereby stifling his movement or finding some way to slow him down without hanging on.

Q: That does sound worrisome. What did you decide to do?

R: As we anticipated the summer flood of tourists, we decided we must get better control over this pattern. We spent some time thinking about our experiences with Mike dating back to the diapering situation as well as mine in the clinic.

By then we understood that we’d be more likely to succeed if we started with clear goals and a plan to meet them. After talking it over, we developed a fairly detailed plan which we used at our next visit to the park. We went directly to a less busy area and let Mike walk on his own. He immediately dashed down the walk away from us. After he had taken a few steps I said, "Stop, Mike!" somewhat sharply to assure that he heard. He looked over his shoulder, surprised, and I repeated, "Stop, Mike!" A bright grin spread across his face as if he sensed a new game coming on and he took off running. I quickly ran to catch him and held him with both hands firmly around his waist. Then I laid him gently but firmly on the grass beside the sidewalk, his face turned away from me, taking care not to say anything. He, of course, giggled and struggled to look at me but I had turned my head so he could get no satisfaction from his "game." I counted to 30 under my breath, then gently stood him up while saying quietly and firmly "Mike, when we say ‘stop’ you must stop."

Q: It sounds like he thought this was a new game and he was ready to play. What did you do about that?

R: Yes, Mike did treat it as a game. However, he looked a bit confused by my response. Still, after a moment’s hesitation, he took off again with a squeal of delight, looking over his shoulder for pursuit. We had anticipated that reaction so were careful not to react as he expected. Instead, after a few steps I said "Stop, Mike!" He seemed to lose a step but ran on. I repeated "Stop, Mike!" then ran to catch him going through the same procedures as before, careful as I ran not to show anything on my face. This time, when let up, Mike was a bit more subdued and when he moved away it was slower. Only when he got a few steps away did we again tell him to stop and this time, with a befuddled smile, he sort of complied. That gave us the opportunity to say, "That’s very good, Mike. You must stop when Mom or Dad tells you to!" At this he beamed, displaying his typical reaction to pleasing us.

Several times as we walked through the park we had occasion to tell Mike to stop and several times he did immediately, again allowing us to praise him for doing so. The times when he did not stop, my wife or I repeated the instruction to "Stop, Mike" and only a couple of times did we have to catch and hold him and count to 30.

Q: As with the diapering project, you saw progress after several tries. But what about the next time you came to the park or were somewhere else and wanted him to stop?

R: The next time we came to the park the process went more quickly with Mike testing the limits only a few times. To our relief, he also appeared genuinely pleased with himself for stopping when told to do so. A few visits to the park later we felt quite secure in letting Mike move about knowing that we could count on him to stay where he happened to be when told him to stop. We also used the same approach in other settings, including in some stores and at the beach, and each time only a few trials were required for Mike to comply. Soon we were confident that he would stop whenever told to do so.

Q: You describe a successful process for you and your family. But would you expect other people to do so well in a similar situation?

R: I realize that by the time we tried to change this behavior, my wife and I had had a lot of experience with the techniques I’ve been talking about, at home for both of us and at the clinic for me. We also had the good fortune to have a son who really liked to please us and so was very responsive to our guidance. Other people using the same exact procedures might find the process would take longer and it might not go quite as smoothly. However, I would expect good results for anyone using this approach if they avoid rewarding inappropriate behavior and if they continue the process enough times. Keep in mind, though, that what is "enough" is based times for a specific child depends entirely on that child’s reactions. All of this is discussed in detail throughout How to Raise Disciplined and Happy Children.

Q: So what are the lessons learned from this experience with your son?

R: Well, the lessons we learned are very similar to those described in the diapering example, but by this point we had a clearer understanding of the process. Now I can better describe what made the process effective:

• First, it was important that we clearly told Mike what we expected him to do. You may have noticed that we did not ask him to stop; we did not say, "Please, stop," or "Stop, Mike, okay?" Instead, we gave him a direct instruction, "Stop, Mike!" which we tried to say clearly and firmly.

• Second, while Mike wanted to make this into a game, we tried hard not to participate. We consciously suppressed our urge to smile at his playful style. We had to be sure he knew that we were quite serious and expected him to comply. If we had giggled at his antics we probably would have seen little or no success. Worse, we might have taught him that Mom and Dad don’t necessarily mean what they say.

• Third, when Mike did not respond to our direction, we did not yell or lecture or attempt to reason with him. Nor did we spank or otherwise punish him. We recognized that this was a learning experience and that our little boy needed time to adapt to our changed expectations. After being free to run around in the park for so long, it would have been unreasonable and unfair to expect him immediately to do what we now demanded.

• Fourth, just as it was important not to fuss at what Mike had not done, it was important for us to take action to make sure he did what we told him to do. Thus, when he did not stop we stopped him ourselves. That got him stopped, but then we had to be sure he learned from the experience. To make sure, once Mike was stopped we held him firmly – but in a manner that caused neither pain nor insult and that also provided no pleasure. The count to thirty was meant to allow time for the experience to sink in – in the process to eliminate the "game" aspect – and perhaps to add a bit of inconvenience, since clearly he would have preferred to be free to move about.

• Fifth, we had to repeat the process as often and as many times as required to make sure Mike learned the lesson. After all, this was a new and strange learning situation for him. How many tries it took mattered very little, as long as he was making progress.

• Sixth, it was important for us to avoid showing either pleasure or upset in how we reacted to Mike, because we did not want him to see either a smile or a frown which might have unintentionally rewarded his failure to stop by giving him attention while not complying.

• Finally, once Mike began to comply when we told to stop, we made a point of rewarding his behavior by letting him know how pleased we were – easy for us to do because we truly were pleased. Since he could meet his needs for attention and approval by what we’d told him to do, he had no reason to try to get those things by disobeying. In a direct way, by stopping when instructed to do so, Mike got the same benefit he sought by the game he initially supposed we were playing.

Q: It sounds like your son learned and that you benefitted as well. Did I get that right?

R: Yes, you surely did. Mike learned our new rule and overall we ended up with a safer, calmer, more relaxed time whenever we were out in crowds. It was a big bonus that the gains carried over to other settings where we needed Mike to stop when told to do so – what psychologists call "generalization" across circumstances.

Q: I understand that you have another son. Did you use the same approach with him?

R: Yes. Soon after this exercise our second son, Danny, had arrived, more than doubling our joy as his enthusiasm resonated with that of his older brother. Their interactions added whole new dimensions to our family life. Dan, too, was an active, eager, responsive, and exuberant child who quickly became a shadow to his brother, in the process often learning things at an earlier stage than otherwise would have been likely. By then it was quite natural for us to use the same approach with him, generally with the same constructive benefits.

Q: It appears that the "generalization" you referred to applied to you and your wife as well as to your kids. Do you have an example of how you applied this approach to parenting with Danny?

R: One story illustrates a variation from those I have already shared. When Danny was two or so there was a warning that close contact with color television sets might be hazardous and we instructed both boys to stay away from the screen. One day I found Danny with his chest pressed against the glass of the set as he strained to reach a toy on top. Concerned about his health, I moved him away while reminding him to stay away. Of course he thought this a great new game and he rushed back to hug the set. Much as we did with Mike in the park, I took Danny a few feet from the set, turned his face away, and held him lying on the carpet for a count of 30. When I let him up I told him to stay away from the television. Sensing a new game and displaying a mischievous grin he rushed back to hug the set, ignoring my instruction to stop. While struggling not to smile, I again moved him several feet from the set, held him firmly but gently on the carpet, and silently counted to 30. As with his brother earlier, Danny quickly found the "game" to be less fun and his moves back to the set became less eager until he finally just sat in place when released.

Q: All that sounds pretty much the same as already discussed, but you said "variation?" What is different about this situation?

R: It is a rather subtle difference, but an important one. What is different is that staying away from the set provided a less clear basis for positive reinforcement than did his brother’s compliance with the instruction to "stop" while at the park. We did not want Danny just to move away from the set when we told him to; we wanted him to stay away from it on his own.

The challenge in such a situation is that rewarding the absence of a behavior is a less clear-cut proposition than is rewarding a behavior itself. To deal with this subtle but important difference, nearly each time my wife or I went into the room we made a point of commenting on how good it was to see Danny sitting and playing away from the television – over time gradually diminishing the frequency and intensity of our comments. Within a week or so we realized that we no longer ever saw Danny hovering unduly close.

Q: Throughout our discussion you have referred to "parents." Does that mean that the approach in How to Raise Disciplined and Happy Children will work only for two-parent families? And what about people who care for children but aren’t their actual parents?

R: That is an excellent question. In the introduction of the book I attempted to make it clear that all the principles and practices described apply to anyone who is responsible for children. I have used the term "parent" and "parents" to refer to the role rather than to the exact relationship with the child or children involved. That means that foster parents, step-parents, single parents, grandparents, and anyone else wanting to help children learn to take responsibility for their own behavior are likely to find DWA is suited to their needs. In fact, various sections discuss specific family configurations that might make use of the approach somewhat more challenging.

Q: Thank you for giving us some insight into how you arrived at the approach to parenting you present in How to Raise Disciplined and Happy Children. Have you anything you’d like to add?

R: Through my work in the clinic and our use of these principles at home, gradually I learned ways to improve both my assessment and my intervention skills with families for whom this approach seemed best suited. And I began systematizing what I presented to parents, eventually starting classes for groups of parents so that I could present the same material to far more families.

Once the classes were well worked our clinic invited pediatricians and other health care staff to refer parents interested in learning alternative modes of discipline. We did this because we were convinced that both the principles and practices are useful for any family, not just for families struggling with significant behavior problems in their children. In fact, we think this approach can be used to prevent major behavior problems as well as correct those already developed. Of course that fit with with our experiences at home as parents ourselves, where we began using the same principles when Mike was only a few months old.

What you will read in How to Raise Disciplined and Happy Children is a summation of my lifetime of learning how best to assist parents to establish positive discipline, free of anger and based on well established knowledge about behavior and how to change it.

Q: Thank you again for talking with us.

R: Thank you for your interest.

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